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tomclare
13th March 2006, 17:18
I took the opportunity over the weekend to read Jeff Connor's recent publication entitled "The Lost Babes". As most of you probably know from pre-publication publicity, it is a book written about Munich, and the slant of it is, how badly those that were involved were treated by Manchester United Football Club in the immediate aftermath, and years after, the tragedy.

After reading the pre-publicity pieces in the newspapers during January and early February, I did expect, given some of the allegations that were made, to be reading of some new evidence that would support what was being said. It certainly turned out to be that this is NOT the case.

Jeff Connor is a professional journalist who was born and raised in Manchester and is my age. He and his family left Manchester shortly after the disaster, and during the period since that time, Mr. Connor openly admits in his introduction to the book, that he has been back to the City on no more than 4/5 occasions and to Old Trafford just once.

There is nothing revealing in the book, nor anything that hasn't been reported before. Also, there is nothing contained therein that you can't find in previous publications about Munich, and certainly on Mike and Elaine's site at www.munich58.co.uk.

The book itself revolves around interviews the writer had with Harry Gregg, Albert Scanlon, and John Doherty, the former two being survivors, and Doherty being a main member of the Committee which organised the Munich testimonial game in 1998.

In the early chapters the writer concentrates on pen portraits of the members of the United team at the time of the tragedy. There are lots of anecdotes given by family members of the survivors, friends, and the three ex-players that I have mentioned. To those that haven't read or heard them before, they will find them interesting. Again though, nothing new is revealed, and those same anecdotes have appeared in other publications and have been told so often down the years.

The middle part of the book deals with events on the day of the crash, and more than anything concentrate on Harry Gregg's recollections of what happened on that sad, fateful, February afternoon. That Harry did things above and beyond the call are indisputable, and he certainly was heroic in the actions that he took that grey, bleak, snowy day. What I did find distateful and have done throughout all the years since the tragedy, are the sniping remarks Harry continually makes about Bill Foulkes; especially the line "You should have seen the big ****er run!" Reading Harry's description of events (and I have just recently heard a full length interview that he gave to an Irish radio station where he graphically describes what happened that day) it makes me wonder, considering the things that he was doing, how he had the time to watch what Bill Foulkes was doing.

The latter part of the book deals with the alleged mistreatment by Manchester United Football Club of the victim's families, survivors and their families, and also castigates the people who are alleged to have made a lot of monies out of the Munich tragedy, and condemns the organization of the testimonial match in 1998 and the way that the monies from that event were distributed. Once more, there is NO fresh evidence of any wrongdoing regarding the testimonial in what has been written in this book. In fact, I find that Harry's comments in this book and what he says in the Irish radio interview that I have mentioned, regarding Eric Cantona's part in the testimonial, completely contradict each other.

The writer does no analysis whatsoever regarding how different things were back in 1958, as to what they were like on the 40th Anniversary in 1998. He makes a sweeping allegation that at the time of the tragedy, the players were vastly underinsured. I would take issue with what the writer says about this. He bases his fact on a Board meeting that took place in 1954 when Sir Matt told the Board that they had players on the books at that time that were worth a total of some 250,000 pounds. An astronomical figure during that time, but it related to everybody at the Club and not just the first team. The insurance figure involved for travel purposes was 100,000 pounds, and again, this would have been for the players that travelled, and once again, was a huge amount back then.

Albert Scanlon tells of his disappointment at his payout from the Lord Mayor of Manchester's Disaster Fund, which amounted to a sum of just over 300 pounds. What Mr. Connor fails to relate at any point in his book, is the stringent rules that were laid down at that time by not only the Charities Commission (of which the Lord Mayor's Fund was) but also the insurance companies regarding payout. If my memory is correct, and I don't think that I am far wrong, the families of those that perished, and those who could no longer continue their careers, were awarded 8,700 pounds by the insurance companies - that was still a huge figure in 1958 when the average yearly salary was around 650 pounds p.a. Those that were able to cintinue a career obviouly fared less well, and it's this contention that seems to stick in Harry and Albert's craw.

It may well have been that the Club could, and should have done better, and have found a way around the rules and regulations in order to help compensate everybody. But hindsight is always a wonderful thing, but if anything had come to light regarding any other payments from any other source, (and the authorities concerned at this time would have been watching events closely) then the very people affected by the tragedy would most certainly have had their insurance/charity awards minimised. In reality, the Club has always been in a catch 22 situiation regarding Munich - damed if they do, damned if they don't.

The book also reveals some unsavoury swipes at people like Bobby Charlton, Wilf McGuinness and the sports journalist, Frank Taylor. Gregg talks of the survivors reunion organized by EUFA, for them to attend the 1998 EC Final in Munich. He recalls the night before the Final when at a Dinner, Bobby was speaking and related the fact that there isn't a day goes by that he doesn't think of his friends who perished in 1958. Gregg says that he called down the table to Bobby; "Then why the **** haven't you done anything for them for all these years." I actually find that a little rich coming from a guy who isn't short of bob or two himself. Gregg also takes a swipe at Wilf McGuinness and his after dinner speaking, saying that Wilf continually pontificates that if it hadn't been for injury, he would have been more than likely on that plane. Harry says that he wouldn't have. He also swipes at Wilf saying that he was just a peripheral player at the time and as such wasn't really a Busby Babe. Nothing could be further from the truth. Wilf had travelled throughout both European campaigns of the time, and had played in quite a few games. He had experience of the competition and had he not been injured prior to Munich, then I am certain that it's a fair assumption that Matt would have included Wilf in the travelling party. As for him not being a Busby Babe, Wilf most certainly was and captained the very first youth team, came up through the ranks, and made many more appearances in the "babes" team than Harry did!

Let me nail a myth - Harry was signed on Decemeber 19th 1957 and made just 11 appearances with the "Babes" before the tragedy happened on February 6th 1958 - that's just 7 short weeks. He writes and talks about the players who perished as though he had known them all through his life - it's my opinion that although he certainly played alongside them, he didn't really know them as well as he thinks!

All three, Gregg, Scanlon, and Doherty take a swipe at Frank Taylor, and state that "he made thousands out of Munich." Maybe he did - he wrote a best selling book entitled "The Day A Team Died" It's a book that has sold well, especially to Manchester United fans since the day that it was published. Like all books, there are little inaccuracies in it, and Frank relates some things from what he was told afterwards. You have to remember that Frank was the last survivor to leave the hospital in Munich, almost 6 months after the tragedy - he was in a coma for two months I believe! He was also in demand in later life as an after dinner speaker, and obviously, Munich played a big part in his talks. Harry conveniently forgets that he has also written 2 books and has dwelt at times in them on Munich. What stopped Scanlon writing a book?

Albert Scanlon also has a huge swipe at Sir Matt and states that after Munich, he thinks Matt had it in his head to get rid of the majority of the survivors. I don't buy that at all. Yes players did move on - Kenny Morgans was nowhere near the player he was before the crash; Ray Wood would never have gotten back into the team due to Harry's own presence and young David Gaskell lurking in the background; Dennis Viollet was into his 30's by the time Matt let him go and it was some of his off-field activities that led to Matt releasing him; as was the case regarding Albert himself - he conveniently forgets the furore in his own private life that happened in 1960, and it was no surprise that weeks after that, he left for Newcastle!

The end of the book relates to the testimonial game in 1998. First of all, let me tell you that each family got in excess of 46,000 pounds as a result of that game. The Committee that organized that match (which included Doherty and PFA Chairman Gordon Taylor) worked and gave their time for nothing. What does relate in the book is the acrimony that that game caused. Gregg is condemning of the monies paid to and taken by, Eric Cantona - yet again, in the Radio interview I mentioned, he states he attaches no blame to Eric!

They (Scanlon and Gregg) criticise the Committe for a share being given to Bobby Charlton, and also the fact that Eddie Colman's share (he had no living descendents at the time the testimonial was played) was given to Salford (and Ordsall in particular where Eddie came from) children's charities. It really did irk me when I read this that they could say things like that. it's interesting to note that John Doherty says that the organizers of that testimonial match received just 4 letters of thanks for their efforts!

The bitterness of Harry and Albert really does show itself in this book, and it's no coincidence that members of other survivors do make note of it - and distance themselves from it.

Jeff Connor, in my opinion didn't really think too much in writing this book. As I said, most of what it contained could be gleaned from elsewhere and takes a massive swipe at Manchester United Football Club - the Club he is so quick to tell you in the introduction that he supports. Most of it is unjustified in my honest opinion. For a man that says he watched the "Babes" regularly as a boy - I would have much rather have read of his experiences back in those great days watching a wonderful set of young men, than to read the dreary same old stuff that has been brought up by writers before him, and in a more tasteful way.

TanyaT
30th January 2008, 13:13
Tom, I have been asked to post a reply on behalf of Jeff O'Connor
I will PM you his e-mail address so that you can get into a discussion if you so wish.



Thanks for giving me the opportunity to respond to Mr Clare's "review" of the Lost Babes. Looking at the content of his post, I found most of it extraordinarily misleading, damaging and riven by what I suspect is an agenda of his own.

First of all, he repeats interminably a charge that there is "nothing new" in the book.

Research for the Lost Babes took over two years and involved around 110 interviews, so perhaps I can be forgiven for taking exception to this remark. I admit there are some familiar faces in there, but that's the problem with Munich - there aren't many relevant sources left.

However, I challenge Mr Clare to show readers of your forums previous interviews - relating to the aftermath of Munich - with the son of Roger Byrne, the surviving family of Liam Whelan, Dennis Viollet's widow, Jackie Blanchflower's son and daughter, David Pegg's sister, or Mark Jones's widow. Nor have I seen details of the problems with the Munich testimonial elsewhere - and certainly not Gordon Taylor's revelations about it. I certainly can't find the material I published on www.munich58.co.uk, excellent tribute site though it is.

Incidentally, Bill Foulkes, Bobby Charlton and Wilf McGuinness did not respond to requests for interviews. Eddie Colman had no relatives that I could find and Duncan Edwards' mother was too ill to be interviewed. Mrs Berry will not talk about Munich, or even Manchester United.

Taking a few other of Mr Clare's random points: My family and I did not leave Manchester shortly after the disaster. I left six years later and my mother and father lived another 20 years in the city.

I said quite plainly in the book I had only been back to Old Trafford once to see A FOOTBALL MATCH. I have been there as a working journalist to cover rugby league finals.

It is not the case that the book revolves "around interviews the writer had with Harry Gregg, Albert Scanlon, and John Doherty". As I have pointed out, they were but three in a cast of over 100.

Mr Clare plainly has an issue with Harry Gregg and Albert Scanlon and somehow I am guilty by default for quoting them. I spoke to both men in their own homes and have no doubts at all that they gave true versions of the event and its aftermath. I hope, for the sake of Mr Clare, that Harry hasn't read his remarks. Albert, of course, would just have a good laugh.

I DO NOT suggest there was any wrongdoing about the Munich testimonial, simply pointing out that it took United 40 years for United to do anything and underlining the distinctions between what families and survivors have received from the club and, say, the Edwards conglomerate.
Most of the early chapters are indeed devoted to the contemporary lives of footballers and after this Mr Clare seems to run out of accusations; the insurance issue is simple carping and will never be proven either way. Quoting himself as "if my memory is correct" is hardly definitive evidence.

I do not, as Mr Clare implies, take "unsavoury swipes at people like Bobby Charlton, Wilf McGuinness and the sports journalist, Frank Taylor". Other people do that, and I simply quote them.

I did not say Harry Gregg was a Busby Babe nor that Wilf McGuinness was not a Busby Babe and as for Mr Clare's statement that "I am certain that it's a fair assumption that Matt would have included Wilf in the travelling party", how can you be certain and assume at the same time? I assume that certainly Mr Clare is not a barrister.

So far, so bad.

Mr Clare then says "let me tell you that each family got in excess of 46,000 pounds as a result of that game. The Committee that organized that match (which included Doherty and PFA Chairman Gordon Taylor) worked and gave their time for nothing."

That is exactly what I state in the book and, unlike Mr Clare, I took the time and trouble to get a copy of the balance sheet.

Nowhere in the book does it say Harry and Albert criticised the committee for giving a share to Bobby Charlton and they did not carp either at Eddie Colman's share going to charity. Albert, as is made clear in the book, gave away a large part of his share to appeal funds. So much for his alleged "bitterness".

Finally, I do indeed still support Manchester United, mainly because of events so long ago. I have never supported the people who run the club, from Louis Edwards onwards. My regard for the club would never stop me from pointing out some of their fallibilites down the years. In Mr Clare's book that seems to imply treachery.

Finally, I did indeed watch the Babes as a boy and I spend two chapters in the book describing the experiences. I am sorry that wasn't enough for Mr Clare, but the book was about the Busby Babes - not me.

tomclare
30th January 2008, 13:46
Thanks Tanya - I will be more than happy to reply to him.

Barton Boys
30th January 2008, 17:23
Tom, With your eloquent writing that holds us spellbound on this forum I look forward to you publishing a book about the Busby Babes. Your accounts have brought them alive for me like nothing else.

tomclare
30th January 2008, 17:43
I replied to Jeff Connor, and had a lovely response back from him. There are no problems between us.

Andrea, the book is virtually finished but needs editing just at the moment. I'll be talking to a few people about it next week. There is over 500 pages of text as it stands and needs "sorting out". Will keep you informed.

Barton Boys
30th January 2008, 17:48
I replied to Jeff Connor, and had a lovely response back from him. There are no problems between us.

Andrea, the book is virtually finished but needs editing just at the moment. I'll be talking to a few people about it next week. There is over 500 pages of text as it stands and needs "sorting out". Will keep you informed.Well I will be in the queue for a copy!

TanyaT
30th January 2008, 18:00
I replied to Jeff Connor, and had a lovely response back from him. There are no problems between us.

Andrea, the book is virtually finished but needs editing just at the moment. I'll be talking to a few people about it next week. There is over 500 pages of text as it stands and needs "sorting out". Will keep you informed.
\\:d/

I hope I can get a signed one!

Barton Boys
30th January 2008, 18:03
\\:d/

I hope I can get a signed one!Of course! I didn't say it but that's exactly what I meant.

TS
31st January 2008, 01:01
Although the high level message of Connor's book is OK, the book told me little I didn't already know. All right there are new interviews, but I mean the overall message.

My own copy of Connor's book has an inserted sheet on which I've noted the factual errors. I do not want my children reading the book in years to come and swallowing it all as fact.

An example of the annoying stuff is on page 154:

"... The original Manchester United calypso recorded in 1955 ... The song is never chanted on the Old Trafford terraces these days, events having conspired to make the sentiments redundant. And in any case the Babes calypso long ago gave way in popularity to more basic contemporary classics such as 'Always look out for Turks wielding knives'"

Utter tripe. *In my opinion*!!!

Things like that, and things like the incorrect statement (page 161) that Bobby Charlton spent the 1958 FA Cup final 'in the stand' (Charlton played in the game), could *in my opinion* make some readers question other aspects of the book (rightly or wrongly).

In the first paragraph of page 1 Connor confesses (his term) that he has only seen one game at Old Trafford since 19 Ferbruary 1958, hasn't lived in Manchester for four decades, and has been back to the city 'on maybe five occasions' and never for any length of time.

All that is fine - it's a free country, and he's up front about it - but I thought it was a shame that he suggested our dear old Tom was pursuing 'an agenda of his own'.

Still, I'm pleased that Tom and Mr Connor have agreed to let it be. I'd expect no less of Tom.

For what it's worth, *in my opinion* Frank Taylor's 'The Day a Team Died', told by a man who was on the plane, is as good an account as you'll read from a non-United person of the actual events of February 1958.

TS
31st January 2008, 21:59
This is a review of Jeff Connor’s book that was written in Times by Michael Henderson in February of 2006. http://www.joinmust.org/forum/showthread.php?t=33052

Seems to say more or less what Tom said. Doesn't it?



THE LOST BABES: Manchester United and the Forgotten Victims of Munich
by Jeff Connor
HarperSport, £14.99; 306pp

THE CRASH ON FEBRUARY 6, 1958, when an aeroplane carrying the footballers of Manchester United back from Belgrade failed to clear a runway at Munich airport, has become (after England’s 1966 World Cup victory) the most significant moment in postwar English football. Eight players perished and the legend of Manchester United, the self-styled “most famous club in the world”, was born.

It would be misleading to suggest that the crash, by itself, propelled United to international renown as a British “marque” that has been compared with Rolls-Royce and the Old Vic. Torino, the Italian club, lost their entire team in an air disaster nine years earlier and they are not even the most famous club in Turin.

United owe their worldwide fan- base to the way that they regrouped under their manager, Matt Busby, after the crash, and won the European Cup in 1968 when their goal-scorers in the final included Bobby Charlton, who survived Munich, and George Best, who symbolised the youth and brilliance of the new side.

Put like that, it is a tale of triumph. Despite 26 long years without winning the championship, from 1967 to 1993, United have established themselves as the most successful club in England, and far and away the best-supported (and therefore, as night follows day, the most detested). To be a Manchester United player is to inherit a unique tradition, as the author of Jeff Connor’s readable book, The Lost Babes, makes clear. What is less clear is whether the club let down the dependents of those who lost their lives on that terrible day in Bavaria, and that lack of clarity robs it of the emotional charge that Connor hopes for.

As a social document it is undoubtedly useful, even if the pen portraits of the players are part of a familiar story: John Carey, captain of the 1948 FA Cup-winning side, puffing away on his pipe as he took the bus to Old Trafford; Eddie Colman kicking a ball about in the Ordsall street where he was born, a mile away from the ground that he adorned with his dapper midfield play — a street where, today, footballs are seen rather less often than drugs and guns. This was an innocent age when players lived among those who watched them, an age of real hardship but also of true “community”.

Those times couldn’t last. Until the maximum wage was abolished in 1961 footballers were mere chattels. Still, it is instructive to look back on the days when the links between supporter, player and club were more binding. What would Roger Byrne, the lost leader of that lost team, make of Gary Neville, his successor as full back and captain, “celebrating” a goal against Liverpool by charging half the length of the field to thrust the club badge on his shirt towards the fans who had been goading him and then hiding behind “passion” as an excuse?

Equally, what would he make of Rio Ferdinand, having collected £80,000 a week for doing nothing during a period of suspension caused by his own forgetfulness, demanding a hefty pay increase to stay at Old Trafford? Or the player who, after a night in a London nightclub, paid a taxi driver £1,000 to drive him back to Manchester? When Byrne was leading United to the championship in 1957, as a regular England international, he didn’t earn £1,000 in a year. But he would certainly recognise players such as Ryan Giggs and Paul Scholes, local lads who became outstanding pros and tip-top players.

Connor, a rugby journalist who grew up in north Manchester, would also, one imagines, recognise such men as keepers of the flame. But it is odd, to say the least, that the author, a “fan”, has visited Old Trafford to watch a match only once since 1958. Nor is it remotely good enough to quote his father saying, apropos the crash, that “things will never be the same again”. They were not, but the 1960s, with Charlton, Best and Denis Law playing the best football of their gilded lives (not to mention the supplementary work of Nobby Stiles and Pat Crerand) were glorious.

When Connor eventually gets to his argument — that the club failed the families of the dead players — it is easy to sympathise but hard to see what they could have done that would have brought satisfaction to all parties. United were not a rich club in 1958, indeed they have only become rich (as opposed to famous) since the stock market flotation of the 1990s. It is unfortunate that a benefit match in 1998 brought the families £47,000 each, while Eric Cantona cleared £90,000 for gracing Old Trafford with his presence, but nobody said that a football club was a philan-thropic institution. It was a mess, not a scandal.

There isn’t a lot here that is new, which is not to say that the book lacks interest. Harry Gregg, the Irish goalie who hauled bodies from the wreckage, remains a hero. Busby, great manager though he was, remains a flawed man, opportunistic (as managers have to be) and less than truthful. Byrne, Colman, Duncan Edwards, Liam Whelan, Tommy Taylor, Mark Jones, David Pegg and Geoff Bent, the “flowers of Manchester” remain mourned by fans the world over.

Barton Boys
31st January 2008, 23:11
An interesting analysis & interesting comments about Sir Matt. What was your take on Sir Matt, Tom particularly with regard to the comments about honesty? We all know what he did for United but what about the man?

keith leigh
5th February 2008, 15:49
There is a lot to be said about Sir Matt not least in the book about him written by Eamon Dunphy. This book casts Matt in a very poor light and if completely true paints him as a very greedy unscrupulous man who did not care about his staff especially Jimmy Murphy.

Barton Boys
5th February 2008, 21:21
There is a lot to be said about Sir Matt not least in the book about him written by Eamon Dunphy. This book casts Matt in a very poor light and if completely true paints him as a very greedy unscrupulous man who did not care about his staff especially Jimmy Murphy.Very much at odds with his public image of being a hero coming back from terrible injuries who had time for anyone.

Twinny
7th February 2008, 16:05
Regarding the Calypso comment, Ive been singing that song on the Stretford End for over 20 years, originally taught to me by my dad, when I asked him what the lyrics were, that was about late 80's / early 90's, but if he never went, then how would he know what match goers sang.