tomclare
8th December 2006, 19:31
This was in answer to a query on another Forum.
Munich 1958 – What If?...
David Loh - 26.11.2003:
Just wondering what you guys think, and apologies if I'm babbling or if this has been discussed before. Also, I apologise in advance if any of you, especially Tom Clare and Johnno White, are offended by this post. Please believe me when I say that it is not my intent to be insensitive.
Manchester United today is arguably the biggest football club in the world, and definitely No. 1 in terms of supporter base. The United Legend and much of this support originates, in some way, from the tremendous amount of goodwill and sympathy generated by the Munich tragedy.
Sometimes I find myself wondering, "What if Munich never occurred?" Where would we be now, as a club? Would the string of titles and Cups the Busby Babes would undoubtedly have won be sufficient to guarantee our club the lofty perch it currently holds, or would we be another Leeds or Liverpool living off past glories?
(Also, I don't want to insult the board, but would the majority of us non-Mancs still be United supporters? What drew us to the club in the first place? I know Munich definitely played a big part when I, as a kid, and someone with absolutely no physical connection to Manchester, decided to support United in '82.)
The tragedy of Munich was immeasurable. I know I still get a lump in my throat when reading posts like Tom's a couple of weeks ago. I can only imagine how you guys, who are so much closer to it all, and especially pre-Munich supporters like Tom and Johnno, must feel. But, you know the saying, "Everything that happens, happens for a reason?"
The Munich legacy has guaranteed our club its current place in the world. How high the price?
Tom Clare:
David, I think it's true to say that these questions pop up on a regular basis. It's a good thing that they do in my opinion, because at this time, you are hearing opinions from people who were actually around, and witnessed the sad events of that time. Over the years, there has been a lot of rubbish and conjecture, written and talked about Munich, and the effect that it had on this great Club of ours. People who were not even around at that time, are now supposedly "authorities" on the subject, and have made a lot of money
from some of the tosh that they have written. Guys like myself and Johnno, and others like us, who are coming to the twighlight of our lives, can tell you the truth.
It's my experience that in life, you can never guarantee anything. As one of our most famous chants goes "Que Sera, Sera" - what will be, will be. Like Johnno, I too am fatalistic. There is no knowing for certain, just what heights that wonderful bunch of lovable young men would have scaled. Unfortunately, IF is a little word that separates nations, and believe me, we could sit here all day wondering about IF! For me, the only way I can answer your questions is from the views and opinions that I have formulated for myself given my own experiences.
I certainly don't want to bore everybody, because some of this they have heard before, but it is all part of trying to get you see the broader picture. Let me take you back to that time/period and try and put things in perspective for you.
In 1952, United had won their first post-war Championship after being runners-up on quite a number of occasions during the preceding six years. The Championship winning team of that year was pretty old, and they were nearing the end of their time. When Busby had taken the job on, in late 1945, he had insisted that he would be given a
five years contract to start with. This was because he had this revolutionary vision of producing a number of teams within the Club, starting at schoolboy level, through to the first team - that would all play in the right manner and spirit. In effect he wanted to capture the best young schoolboy footballers in the country, bring them to United, school them in the "United Way" and make sure that they provided a conveyor belt of good young players,( and the emphasis is on the word young) that would feed
through regularly to the first team.
After the Championship win of '52, he slowly began to dismantle that team, and introduce the first of his young players - Johnny Berry, Mark Jones, Roger Byrne, Jeff Whitefoot, Bill Foulkes, had all played that season. The two most significant things in the '53 season was that Tommy Taylor arrived from Barnsley, and the young colossus that
was Duncan Edwards made his debut. Slowly but surely, his visionary team was coming together. Busby had his critics back then, and a number of journalists took him to task saying that his master plan would never work. It was no coincidence that two other former great players who had become managers at that time, had more than seen the
wisdom of Matt's dream, and had started to put the same kind of policies together within their own respective Clubs - Stan Cullis at Wolves, and Ted Drake at Chelsea. Again, no coincidence that these Clubs contested some of the first FA Youth Cup Finals with United. In 1954/55 a lot of other young players were seen to make their debuts - Ray Wood became a permanent fixture in goal, Jackie Blanchflower, Freddie Goodwin, Colin Webster, David Pegg, Denis Violett, Billy Whelan, Johnny Doherty, Albert Scanlon. It was a transition year. 1955/56/ saw it all come together, and this bunch of young men of whom Alf Clarke of The Manchester Evening Chronicle, affectionately penned as "The Busby Babes" swept to their first Championship by a winning margin of some 11 points (unheard of in those days) and with a team whose average age was just 22 years old!
They played a brand of adventurous, open, attacking football, but also played it without fear, and nobody would dominate them. In '56, Eddie Colman had come through, as had Bobby Charlton, Ian Greaves, Ronnie Cope, Wilf McGuinness, Geoff Bent - the club had such amazing strength in depth, and all of them young, young, players, with great
careers ahead of them.
'56/'57 saw them enter Europe, and again, they played without fear and with such panache. This team of young stalwarts had captured the imagination of the whole of the British Nation, not only by the style of football that they played, but also with the way that they conducted themselves. You have to remember that there were a lot of big, big, players around then with huge reputations - but never, ever, did it at any time faze these young kids. They were brought up to follow Sir Matt, and Jimmy's, ideals, as to how the game should be played, and how players should look after themselves. They were a
credit to their club, and the various countries that they represented at International level, but mostly, they were a credit to themselves because their feet never left the floor - they were just ordinary, everyday lads, who just happened to love playing football. They were
the team that everybody wanted to see - attendances home and away rose signficantly, and it was at this time that United's fan base began to expand in all directions of the compass. They narrowly failed in their first quest for the European crown, but they did
retain their title, and were so cruelly robbed of the distinction of becoming the first "double winners" that century, only by Peter McParland's horrific assault on Ray Wood in the '57 F.A. Cup Final.
The '57/'58 season began, and for the first half of that season, United were not firing on all cylinders, and just before Christmas, Matt signed Harry Gregg who replaced Ray Wood in goal, and introduced Bob Charlton, Ken Morgans and Albert Scanlon into the team. Not firing on all cylinders, but they were lying third in the league come 6th February '58, 4 points behind the leaders Wolves, whom they were due to play at Old Trafford on February 8th. They were into the fifth round of the F.A. Cup, and were also into the pot for the semi-finals of the European Cup, and relishing the thought of another crack at the mighty Real Madrid!
At that time, it's interesting to look at how strong the Club really were. Apart from the first team, the Reserves had romped away with the Central league for the previous couple of years, as had the "A" and "B" teams, and the Junior team used to win games by astronomical figures! The Youth team had won the F.A. Youth Cup for the five years since its inception, and the following fact will really tell you how strong the club were in terms of playing depth. On an April Saturday, in 1957, United played a First Division game against Burnley at Old Trafford, and it was just before the home leg of the EC semi-final tie against Real. Sir Matt "rested" nine regular first team players that day, and replaced them with reserve team players. Bob Lord the Burnley Chairman played hell about it, and the F.A. looked into the matter of "Manchester United playing a weakened team in a first class fixture." United beat Burnley comfortably that day 2-0, and believe me, Burnley were no mean team at that time, and had some really established international players - Bob Lord never forgave United for that defeat!
Attendances were never as high as people say, but that was due to the fact that fans were selective in their games. One week could see 60,000 inside the ground and the next 30,000 depending upon who the opposition was. However, the reserves could pull in 10,000 for a match, and the Youth team ties used to attract 30,000! If youhave a look at the attendances for their away games though, it was a different kettle of fish. Against the different clubs concerned, they tended to attract the biggest attendance at that club for their season. So even at that time, Manchester United had captured the fans imagination.
Of course, then came that sad, sad, day of February 6th, when the lives of those eight young men were lost, injuries to several players meant enforced retirements, and young men were forced by necessity into the team way ahead of their time and they were nowhere near ready for it. But a lot of people tend to forget, that although United reached the FA Cup Final in the immediate aftermath of the tragedy, the following season, '58/'59, they actually finished runners-up in the First Division! Now when you take into account the happenings of that previous year, it shows you just how deep was United's talent at that time. Unfortunately, something had to give, and in effect it is that players, who, given the normal run of things, would have made a big impact at the Club, suffered, They
were pushed too early, and all the emotion, stress, and strain of what had been going on around them, obviously took it's toll - it was only natural - we're talking in some cases of teenagers. Players like Mark Pearson, Alex Dawson, Ronnie Cope, Freddie Goodwin, Ian
Greaves, David Gaskell (although he did play in the '63 Cup Final) Bobby Harrop, Peter Jones, Harold Bratt, Tony Hawksworth, Gordon Clayton, Bryce Fulton, Noel McFarlane.
There was a huge wave of emotion and sympathy that did help carry the Club along, and certainly, because of the tragedy, attracted a lot of "new" supporters. But as I said, United's fan base was already rapidly expanding prior to the tragedy. It's now that that little word IF comes to the fore - we'll never know for certain what that remarkable bunch of young men would, and could have achieved. It is my considered opinion though, that to quote Sir Matt's own words - "They would have won the Boat Race!" It's hard for people like myself, and others of my generation, to really get over to you, just what a great, great team, that pre-Munich side was, and they still had some years to go before they would have peaked. Certainly, I feel that had they drawn Real that season in either the semi, or if they had met them in the Final of the EC, they would have eliminated them, or beaten them in that Final. Real employed some really dubious tactics the previous year to beat United - we were on the rough end of some highly dubious Refereeing decisions in Madrid - it was a game where Di Stefano should have been sent off for blatantly kicking Eddie Colman who had done such a great marking job on him. In the return leg, Real had temporarily signed a full back from another Spanish First Division Club to counter David Pegg's running style - he'd destroyed Lesmes in the first leg. The full back was then returned to his club after the Old Trafford leg! I feel for certain that the European Cup would have been on the mantle at Old Trafford before the turn of that decade, and also, that United would have dominated domestic football in England for a long, long time, to come. I also feel that England would have probably won the World Cup in Sweden that year. Not only did they lose the United players, but Jeff Hall the Birmingham full back, who was partner to Roger Byrne for 17 consecutive matches, lost his life also just before Munich, a victim of polio. The heart had been ripped out of England's team. People forget that just over a year before Munich, England had battered Brazil at Wembley by 4-2 and had also missed two penalties in that game! Edwards mastered Didi in that same game, and they couldn't cope with Taylor's front running – he scored twice. Pele - I have no doubt Edwards would have mastered him!
We must never forget the legacy that Sir Matt, Jimmy, and those lads left us. The standards that they set, must never ever be lowered, and yes David, it was a high, high price to pay for what we see today . But you know, we were so privileged to see those young men, and to share the victories, the good times, and even more, the sorrow of their loss. Without doubt they are the base and the platform from what has been built since. Their legacy and legend must always be passed on, and they must and will, never be forgotten.
Munich 1958 – What If?...
David Loh - 26.11.2003:
Just wondering what you guys think, and apologies if I'm babbling or if this has been discussed before. Also, I apologise in advance if any of you, especially Tom Clare and Johnno White, are offended by this post. Please believe me when I say that it is not my intent to be insensitive.
Manchester United today is arguably the biggest football club in the world, and definitely No. 1 in terms of supporter base. The United Legend and much of this support originates, in some way, from the tremendous amount of goodwill and sympathy generated by the Munich tragedy.
Sometimes I find myself wondering, "What if Munich never occurred?" Where would we be now, as a club? Would the string of titles and Cups the Busby Babes would undoubtedly have won be sufficient to guarantee our club the lofty perch it currently holds, or would we be another Leeds or Liverpool living off past glories?
(Also, I don't want to insult the board, but would the majority of us non-Mancs still be United supporters? What drew us to the club in the first place? I know Munich definitely played a big part when I, as a kid, and someone with absolutely no physical connection to Manchester, decided to support United in '82.)
The tragedy of Munich was immeasurable. I know I still get a lump in my throat when reading posts like Tom's a couple of weeks ago. I can only imagine how you guys, who are so much closer to it all, and especially pre-Munich supporters like Tom and Johnno, must feel. But, you know the saying, "Everything that happens, happens for a reason?"
The Munich legacy has guaranteed our club its current place in the world. How high the price?
Tom Clare:
David, I think it's true to say that these questions pop up on a regular basis. It's a good thing that they do in my opinion, because at this time, you are hearing opinions from people who were actually around, and witnessed the sad events of that time. Over the years, there has been a lot of rubbish and conjecture, written and talked about Munich, and the effect that it had on this great Club of ours. People who were not even around at that time, are now supposedly "authorities" on the subject, and have made a lot of money
from some of the tosh that they have written. Guys like myself and Johnno, and others like us, who are coming to the twighlight of our lives, can tell you the truth.
It's my experience that in life, you can never guarantee anything. As one of our most famous chants goes "Que Sera, Sera" - what will be, will be. Like Johnno, I too am fatalistic. There is no knowing for certain, just what heights that wonderful bunch of lovable young men would have scaled. Unfortunately, IF is a little word that separates nations, and believe me, we could sit here all day wondering about IF! For me, the only way I can answer your questions is from the views and opinions that I have formulated for myself given my own experiences.
I certainly don't want to bore everybody, because some of this they have heard before, but it is all part of trying to get you see the broader picture. Let me take you back to that time/period and try and put things in perspective for you.
In 1952, United had won their first post-war Championship after being runners-up on quite a number of occasions during the preceding six years. The Championship winning team of that year was pretty old, and they were nearing the end of their time. When Busby had taken the job on, in late 1945, he had insisted that he would be given a
five years contract to start with. This was because he had this revolutionary vision of producing a number of teams within the Club, starting at schoolboy level, through to the first team - that would all play in the right manner and spirit. In effect he wanted to capture the best young schoolboy footballers in the country, bring them to United, school them in the "United Way" and make sure that they provided a conveyor belt of good young players,( and the emphasis is on the word young) that would feed
through regularly to the first team.
After the Championship win of '52, he slowly began to dismantle that team, and introduce the first of his young players - Johnny Berry, Mark Jones, Roger Byrne, Jeff Whitefoot, Bill Foulkes, had all played that season. The two most significant things in the '53 season was that Tommy Taylor arrived from Barnsley, and the young colossus that
was Duncan Edwards made his debut. Slowly but surely, his visionary team was coming together. Busby had his critics back then, and a number of journalists took him to task saying that his master plan would never work. It was no coincidence that two other former great players who had become managers at that time, had more than seen the
wisdom of Matt's dream, and had started to put the same kind of policies together within their own respective Clubs - Stan Cullis at Wolves, and Ted Drake at Chelsea. Again, no coincidence that these Clubs contested some of the first FA Youth Cup Finals with United. In 1954/55 a lot of other young players were seen to make their debuts - Ray Wood became a permanent fixture in goal, Jackie Blanchflower, Freddie Goodwin, Colin Webster, David Pegg, Denis Violett, Billy Whelan, Johnny Doherty, Albert Scanlon. It was a transition year. 1955/56/ saw it all come together, and this bunch of young men of whom Alf Clarke of The Manchester Evening Chronicle, affectionately penned as "The Busby Babes" swept to their first Championship by a winning margin of some 11 points (unheard of in those days) and with a team whose average age was just 22 years old!
They played a brand of adventurous, open, attacking football, but also played it without fear, and nobody would dominate them. In '56, Eddie Colman had come through, as had Bobby Charlton, Ian Greaves, Ronnie Cope, Wilf McGuinness, Geoff Bent - the club had such amazing strength in depth, and all of them young, young, players, with great
careers ahead of them.
'56/'57 saw them enter Europe, and again, they played without fear and with such panache. This team of young stalwarts had captured the imagination of the whole of the British Nation, not only by the style of football that they played, but also with the way that they conducted themselves. You have to remember that there were a lot of big, big, players around then with huge reputations - but never, ever, did it at any time faze these young kids. They were brought up to follow Sir Matt, and Jimmy's, ideals, as to how the game should be played, and how players should look after themselves. They were a
credit to their club, and the various countries that they represented at International level, but mostly, they were a credit to themselves because their feet never left the floor - they were just ordinary, everyday lads, who just happened to love playing football. They were
the team that everybody wanted to see - attendances home and away rose signficantly, and it was at this time that United's fan base began to expand in all directions of the compass. They narrowly failed in their first quest for the European crown, but they did
retain their title, and were so cruelly robbed of the distinction of becoming the first "double winners" that century, only by Peter McParland's horrific assault on Ray Wood in the '57 F.A. Cup Final.
The '57/'58 season began, and for the first half of that season, United were not firing on all cylinders, and just before Christmas, Matt signed Harry Gregg who replaced Ray Wood in goal, and introduced Bob Charlton, Ken Morgans and Albert Scanlon into the team. Not firing on all cylinders, but they were lying third in the league come 6th February '58, 4 points behind the leaders Wolves, whom they were due to play at Old Trafford on February 8th. They were into the fifth round of the F.A. Cup, and were also into the pot for the semi-finals of the European Cup, and relishing the thought of another crack at the mighty Real Madrid!
At that time, it's interesting to look at how strong the Club really were. Apart from the first team, the Reserves had romped away with the Central league for the previous couple of years, as had the "A" and "B" teams, and the Junior team used to win games by astronomical figures! The Youth team had won the F.A. Youth Cup for the five years since its inception, and the following fact will really tell you how strong the club were in terms of playing depth. On an April Saturday, in 1957, United played a First Division game against Burnley at Old Trafford, and it was just before the home leg of the EC semi-final tie against Real. Sir Matt "rested" nine regular first team players that day, and replaced them with reserve team players. Bob Lord the Burnley Chairman played hell about it, and the F.A. looked into the matter of "Manchester United playing a weakened team in a first class fixture." United beat Burnley comfortably that day 2-0, and believe me, Burnley were no mean team at that time, and had some really established international players - Bob Lord never forgave United for that defeat!
Attendances were never as high as people say, but that was due to the fact that fans were selective in their games. One week could see 60,000 inside the ground and the next 30,000 depending upon who the opposition was. However, the reserves could pull in 10,000 for a match, and the Youth team ties used to attract 30,000! If youhave a look at the attendances for their away games though, it was a different kettle of fish. Against the different clubs concerned, they tended to attract the biggest attendance at that club for their season. So even at that time, Manchester United had captured the fans imagination.
Of course, then came that sad, sad, day of February 6th, when the lives of those eight young men were lost, injuries to several players meant enforced retirements, and young men were forced by necessity into the team way ahead of their time and they were nowhere near ready for it. But a lot of people tend to forget, that although United reached the FA Cup Final in the immediate aftermath of the tragedy, the following season, '58/'59, they actually finished runners-up in the First Division! Now when you take into account the happenings of that previous year, it shows you just how deep was United's talent at that time. Unfortunately, something had to give, and in effect it is that players, who, given the normal run of things, would have made a big impact at the Club, suffered, They
were pushed too early, and all the emotion, stress, and strain of what had been going on around them, obviously took it's toll - it was only natural - we're talking in some cases of teenagers. Players like Mark Pearson, Alex Dawson, Ronnie Cope, Freddie Goodwin, Ian
Greaves, David Gaskell (although he did play in the '63 Cup Final) Bobby Harrop, Peter Jones, Harold Bratt, Tony Hawksworth, Gordon Clayton, Bryce Fulton, Noel McFarlane.
There was a huge wave of emotion and sympathy that did help carry the Club along, and certainly, because of the tragedy, attracted a lot of "new" supporters. But as I said, United's fan base was already rapidly expanding prior to the tragedy. It's now that that little word IF comes to the fore - we'll never know for certain what that remarkable bunch of young men would, and could have achieved. It is my considered opinion though, that to quote Sir Matt's own words - "They would have won the Boat Race!" It's hard for people like myself, and others of my generation, to really get over to you, just what a great, great team, that pre-Munich side was, and they still had some years to go before they would have peaked. Certainly, I feel that had they drawn Real that season in either the semi, or if they had met them in the Final of the EC, they would have eliminated them, or beaten them in that Final. Real employed some really dubious tactics the previous year to beat United - we were on the rough end of some highly dubious Refereeing decisions in Madrid - it was a game where Di Stefano should have been sent off for blatantly kicking Eddie Colman who had done such a great marking job on him. In the return leg, Real had temporarily signed a full back from another Spanish First Division Club to counter David Pegg's running style - he'd destroyed Lesmes in the first leg. The full back was then returned to his club after the Old Trafford leg! I feel for certain that the European Cup would have been on the mantle at Old Trafford before the turn of that decade, and also, that United would have dominated domestic football in England for a long, long time, to come. I also feel that England would have probably won the World Cup in Sweden that year. Not only did they lose the United players, but Jeff Hall the Birmingham full back, who was partner to Roger Byrne for 17 consecutive matches, lost his life also just before Munich, a victim of polio. The heart had been ripped out of England's team. People forget that just over a year before Munich, England had battered Brazil at Wembley by 4-2 and had also missed two penalties in that game! Edwards mastered Didi in that same game, and they couldn't cope with Taylor's front running – he scored twice. Pele - I have no doubt Edwards would have mastered him!
We must never forget the legacy that Sir Matt, Jimmy, and those lads left us. The standards that they set, must never ever be lowered, and yes David, it was a high, high price to pay for what we see today . But you know, we were so privileged to see those young men, and to share the victories, the good times, and even more, the sorrow of their loss. Without doubt they are the base and the platform from what has been built since. Their legacy and legend must always be passed on, and they must and will, never be forgotten.