Question for Tom

[Stu Parish]

Tom,

Out of all the players you have seen in the 50's, who would be in your top 10, United or non United?

[tomclare]

Tom,

Out of all the players you have seen in the 50's, who would be in your top 10, United or non United?

Difficult question but I'll try and give it to you in 4 lists.

For United: 1. Edwards. 2. Carey. 3. Byrne. 4. Taylor. 5. Charlton. 6. Viollet. 7. Rowley. 8. Whelan. 9. Berry. 10. Colman.

British Players: 1. Finney. 2. Charles. 3. Shackleton. 4. Mathews. 5. Mackay. 6. Milburn. 7. Haynes. 8. Barnes. 9. Sewell. 10. Hancocks.

Foreign: 1. Di Stefano. 2. Trautmann. 3. Puskas. 4. Didi. 5. Sivori 6. Schiaffino. 7. Hidegutchki. 8. Kopa. 9. Gento. 10. Santamaria.


Best 10 from those lists: 1. Edwards. 2. DI Stefano. 3. Puskas. 4. Didi. 5. Charles. 6. Hidegutchki. 7. Shackleton. 8. Trautmann. 9. Gento. 10. Santamaria.

[Stu Parish]

Ive heard good stuff about Didi and Gento (although Ive seen little), what sort of players were they?

[tomclare]

Didi was tremendous player and mentored Pele. He was the architect behind their 1958 World Cup win in Sweden. Unfortunately, he was 30 ish by then and Pele eventually replaced him, but a great, great, player. He played once against England at Wembley in late 1956, England won 4-2 and Duncan eclipsed him.

Gento was probably the fastest and trickiest winger that I ever saw - he had pace to burn and was nicknamed "The Flying Bicycle". He was so quick from a standing start, but he could go inside or outside full backs and had two great feet - a nightmare to mark.

[Stu Parish]

Skillful players and tricky wingers are my favourite type of players, from what ive seen of Gento he epitomises this, who would you say was the trickiest / most skillful that you saw of that era, sorry for all the questions but thats an era Im pretty clueless about, I always pester Eric about it though.

[tomclare]

Skillful players and tricky wingers are my favourite type of players, from what ive seen of Gento he epitomises this, who would you say was the trickiest / most skillful that you saw of that era, sorry for all the questions but thats an era Im pretty clueless about, I always pester Eric about it though.

All teams, in all divisions of the league back then played with two wingers, and the majority of them were good at what they did. There was some tremdous wingers around at top level - Finney, Mathews, Perry, Clarke, Fagan, Holden, Mullen, Hancocks, Mitchell, Bingham, Liddell, Blunstone, Medwin, Tapscott, Bradley, Scanlon, Berry, Pegg just to name a few. They were all very, very, very good players.

I am often asked, why then, if England had so many good players back then, weren't they a dominating power in world football? One of the problems was that the England team was picked by a Selection Committee in those days made up mainly of Chairmen from different clubs. The team used to change from game to game, so it's no wonder that there was no continuity or consistency. There was an attitude that "we're the best". Individually, we had some of the greatets players around, but collectively, obviously with all the chopping and changing, it was nevr going to work.

It came near once and that was from 1956 onwards when there was a ucleus of a very good team coming together with a backbone of Edwards, byrne and Taylor. Sadly, Munich happened and England also suffered as a result. I have a firm belief that if the tragedy had never have happened, England would have won the 1958 WC.

[AlGordon]

Where's the best place to go for videos of these guys? I remember watching a great programme on John Charles on Channel 4 a few years back, and I've seen snippets of the Babes and of the various World Cups in the 50's but very little else.

It's an era of football that almost seems forgotten and yet was probably football at its purest...unsullied by super amounts of money yet still played to a high degree of skill, passion and on decent grounds.

[TanyaT]

It's a shame there wasn't much TV around then and what there was was considered dispensable, so what there was is mostly lost.

[Stu Parish]

I suppose were lucky we can pester Tom for info.

[AlGordon]

I didn't think the problem was dispensibility, was it not a case of wiping a reusing to save cost after the war years? I agree though, it is sad that it happened. :(

[TanyaT]

I suppose were lucky we can pester Tom for info.aren't we just.
He does it so bloody well too

[tomclare]

It is sad that there is so little footage of football in the fifties. The first "live" televised European Cup tie in Britain was the semi-final against Real Madrid at Old Trafford in April 1957 - I just wonder what ever happened to the footage as it was shown by Granada. I wonder if they still have it? The commentator was a journalist from the old Reynolds News, a guy by the name of Gerry Loftus - it was awful apparently.

The BBC back then used to show a programme on Sunday afternoons through the season which showed highlights from the previous day's First Division games. Pathe News must have an enormous archive of old film, because they used to show highlights of internationals and important games. I posted some great links from YouTube late last year that showed quite a lot of the "babes" but I see that they have been pulled from YouTube by Pathe because of copyright infringement.

You can get the dvd of the complete 1957 FA Cup Final - not the best of "Babes" performances but there are some real great cameos throughout the game by different players.

It's sad really because I often hear of this era referred to as "black and white" football and just brushed aside as having no importance and certainly never being on a par with modern day football. Nothing could be further than the truth. I'd love to see one or two of the present day prima donnas trying to cope with Berry, Pegg, Taylor etc.

The communities were all important to the clubs back then as well, so you really did feel part of the club that you followed - a far cry from today's sorry situation.

[chriselkins]

For archive footage, I'd recommend taking a look at the ITN Source website - www.itnsource.co.uk (http://www.itnsource.co.uk)

They have a lot of British Pathe videos and have - from my knowledge - the Granada archives. I'm not sure if this is where any full match would be kept, though, as I'm not sure of the copyright issues and who would own the pictures.

[Stu Parish]

Tom,

Have you ever thought about writing to Pathe and asking if they would let us screen the footage of the Madrid game, could even do it at the new clubhouse on the 50th anniversary?

Just an idea.

What do you think???

[tomclare]

Tom,

Have you ever thought about writing to Pathe and asking if they would let us screen the footage of the Madrid game, could even do it at the new clubhouse on the 50th anniversary?

Just an idea.

What do you think???

Actually it's Granada that screened the game although I think Pathe did a short 2 minute highlights thing of that game. Somehow, I doubt that granada don't have the film anymore - but it may be worth asking them.

[AlGordon]

Tom,

Have you ever thought about writing to Pathe and asking if they would let us screen the footage of the Madrid game, could even do it at the new clubhouse on the 50th anniversary?

Just an idea.

What do you think???
I think that's a top idea Twinny.

I've just had a quick search of the ITNSource site and there two listings for the Madrid match. One a Pathe clip, which I'm guessing will be the highlights. Plus one provided by Reuters, which could be the full match or could just be a clip, there's no way of telling! Could be worth investigating further though.

[dave_lem]

brilliant thread!


thanks for asking the question, twinny...

and as always, tom, thanks for lending your knowledge... =D> =D>

dare i say....

this is awesome!

[Stu Parish]

Could someone put this idea to the committee? (I dont know the correct process).

[TanyaT]

Could someone put this idea to the committee? (I dont know the correct process).

they have done !

They've been pointed to this thread and told why they should take a look.
If we can do it, it would be a really cracking thing to put on

[TanyaT]

I;ve done a search for the fifties
http://www.itnsource.com/en/Entire-Archive/Search/Advanced_Search/?db=bpathe%2bgranadaclips%2bitn%2bgranadaprogs&quicksearchquery=&decade=1950&inc=Manchester+United&dbCat=all&sort=RELEVANCE+DATE&format=&save=False&pageNum=1&pageSize=10
and been watching the Cup Final v Villa, who are in stripes :shock:

[Stu Parish]

Nice one, I think it would be a decent event, especially for those of us not old enough to have seen the babes.

[tomclare]

Oh! Dear. That site was certainly counterproductive for me yesterday as I got no bloody work done. Found some great things, and one that was very, very poignant. I went into the Pathe News Archives and found the last interview that George ever gave and it was to Talksport with Rodney Marsh. Last about 50 minutes and I found it quite emotional. Go into the site and just type in a search for George Best - it's at the bottom on the second page and if you have time to watch it - it's emotional, but so enjoyable.

[chriselkins]

Oh! Dear. That site was certainly counterproductive for me yesterday as I got no bloody work done.Sorry! :paperbag:

[Mango]

Im nearly sure I cam across a DVD last week about Bestie and the tag line read "including Bests' last interview". I was in a rush so didn't really look into it too much. I'll keep my eyes out for it again though, maybe its what you saw Tom. Great thread btw

[chriselkins]

If you mean this DVD (http://www.joinMUST.org/amazon/B000IHZ4D8), it'll almost certainly be the GB interview with Rodney Marsh, with TalkSport being owned by UTV.

[Paul Brooks]

And available here (http://www.joinmust.org/forum/showthread.php?p=212804) :lol: